23 Jun

From the Ultimate Intimacy Podcast Episode 18 with Mike and Carlie Kercheval. Mike and Carlie are the owners of Marriage Legacy Builders, and Christian Marriage Adventure. You can find a lot more great information and learn more about them HERE on their website.

Listen to episode “Becoming One In Marriage”

NICK: So this is a really important subject and I don’t think people often know how to become one in marriage. I guess you could say, you know, the Bible talks about that as a husband and wife becoming one Christ talks about that a lot. So what does it mean to become one in marriage?

CARLIE: That’s an awesome question. And I think it’s overlooked because people just, it’s a simple saying like, oh the two become one. People are always saying these things, but like you said, I think it’s often overlooked with that process actually looks like and how difficult it can actually be. And so wonderful things that Michael and I have witnessed in our own marriage, we’re going to celebrate 21 years on June 10th, so we’re almost there can’t say it quite yet. So for the past 20 years, one of the main ways that we’ve witnessed this inaction is that when you’re putting your spouse above yourself, then you’re able to become one that way, because oftentimes we’re thinking of ourselves and not even to be selfish, but it’s just the way our brains are wired, right? We know we have a crocodile brain, some doctors and scientists call it, but we’re always kind of protecting right self preservation. And so when we’re making that intentional choice to say, you know what? Not only am I going to do this because God tells me that I should, but also I want to do this because I want to make sure that Michael is actually, we’re actually fitting together as one. It’s not Carlie forcing her views on Mike or Mike forcing his views on Carlie. And I’ve noticed that we’ve witnessed we were talking about this how, you know, over the years, just as we’ve made that intentional choice and we failed. Okay, So there’s that we failed many times. But at the end of the day, we always say that this is how we’re going to do this. We’ve been faithful to that. And we’ve noticed that now I’m not waking up in the morning always thinking, well, what am I going to do today or how can I do this or that? But I’m thinking how can I serve my husband? How can I love him today? Maybe he’s going through a difficult time. You know, we we when he came out of the army recently, actually been four years ago. So he came out after 15 years of active duty and it was he retired early due to combat related injuries. So you guys can imagine we had PTSD stuff, you know, traumatic brain injury, actual physical injuries. There was a lot that we had to overcome and had I not had we not had that practice all those years prior to 17 years leading up to that event. I think we would have been in a world of hurt because we would have gone our separate ways. I could have easily been offended by how for the first time I saw my husband sad, you know and it was like, well how do I deal with that? Well let me think, how can I love him through this? Whereas you know Carlie would have just might have been like, oh gosh, I don’t know what to do, I’m just gonna go, you know and so that oneness, that practice of the one and choosing each other and putting each other prioritizing each other first really has given us the ability to get through a lot of trials in life.

MIKE: And also along with this, I’m glad Carlie that you talked about the process. I think a lot of times people might read the scripture and they see it to become one and people are like, yeah that sounds good but you need to go through things in life and Carlie and I as as husband and wife, I just want to let you guys know this that we did not grow up in a Christian household. You know, we saw a lot of things, we saw physical abuse, we saw verbal abuse, we had a lot of traumatic things that went on in our personal lives. And I know for me personally that I always would pray to God and say, you know what? I know you have someone out there for me that loves me, for who I am not my potential or what people think I should be or what I thought I should be. In other words, I knew that God well look out for me and so when two become one flesh, there’s gonna be a process. It’s just like when people are at the altar they say I do to the vows and those are some really lengthy and real hard core values like, okay, but then you have a lifetime to work that out. It’s not gonna happen. All those things you said in the vows is not going to happen overnight. You might have good intentions, but you’re gonna have to come together. There’s gonna be times you’re going to have disagreements, you know what I mean? You’re gonna, you know, your mind wants to, has probably talked about, it wants to kind of protect itself, persevere. Hey, I know I can protect myself by saying certain things or doing certain things that will kind of favor me. But God has anointed me, has empowered my spouse to pull things out of me that I might not want to be pulled out.

NICK: I know I love those comments and I love one of the things that you said Carlie at the beginning to is, you know, you failed and you failed many times. I think a lot of couples think, oh, how can we be one of marriage if everything isn’t perfect, you know, if we’re having disagreements or we’re having arguments that is normal in a healthy relationship. We want everyone to know that every every healthy good marriage and good couple have disagreements and they have failures. And I loved how you hit on that, that the failures are just gonna make you stronger in the long run. So for everyone out there listening, just know that failure is a part of the process and a necessary part of the process to become one in marriage. And I like the next thing, you know, investing in your spouse when I think of investing, it’s not just a one lump sum that you put in and you’re done, you’re investing over time, you’re continuing to invest and invest in that investment continues to grow and grow. So I love that analogy. So, like you said, you’re going to continue to fail and have these things happen, but why is it so important? Or I guess what does it mean to invest in your spouse?

CARLIE: Yeah, that’s that’s a great question. It’s interesting because just recently I got some more insight for myself personally about that process, because you know, like we just talked about investment when you think of investing, a lot of people think of money, right, and they’re quick to do it. Oh, I want to invest, we want to buy our first house, you know, when you first get married or we want to have enough money one day to be debt free and invest in the stock market or have investment properties and we’re so quick to throw money into a man made system. But what God has shown us over the years is that we are sowing eternal seeds. This is a legacy that is birth out of the incorruptible seed of Jesus Christ. And so for us, while we can look to the world’s example of investment, because we’re not against it, you know, it’s stuff that we believe that God can help us to to gain the ability to fund things that he has and once on this earth. But at the same time understanding that it is so much more important for me to choose my husband over profit of my company. So some of the ways for us that that looks like is you know, we spent a lot of time apart when he was in the military. So we were always careful to invest our time wisely making sure that if we had five minutes to steal a kiss or you know, a half an hour to pray or to hold each other sometimes and just cry. Because how do you say goodbye to somebody for a year?

It’s like every time it’s like, wow. So we would, we learned early on that the important investments were the ones where we showed each other and allowed each other to feel love to give it to receive it. And oftentimes we found that that investment, it’s sometimes it’s long term results, you know, like the childbearing, okay, we won’t go into that, but you know, it’s a longer term investment. But what we’ve noticed was that there would be some very short term games as well. So for instance when Mike would be gone a year at a time because we had sown the seeds and invested in each other, we knew where we stood with each other. So I didn’t have to worry like, oh, what’s he doing over there or he’s not like, oh, what you doing back home? We literally could connect and be like, honey, I’m praying for you. How can I pray for you? We were able to study the bible. I know some people that’s not their thing, but that’s our thing. And so we still managed to through emails and sometimes through phone calls when he was able to talk. So it’s those things that we’ve learned that were important to us that really were the eternal investments that we have just managed to priorities in our daily lives.

MIKE: What you’re saying Carly is part of investing and I’m glad that you broke that down naked people think maybe money or whatever. But the main core of investing in your spouse is you have to tell yourself out of love that I’m all in. And what I mean by that is it’s not like saying, hey, I’m gonna say something that my spouse wants to hear, what I think they want to hear, but you’re gonna truly study your spouse and find out what makes them tick and you’re gonna keep with God’s help showing you. Because there’s so many times that God would say, Carlie just wants you to hug her just the other day. You know, I would normally do something else. A God compelled me to just go and hug her and pray for. And that’s where the, that’s where the release the ministering came in and this is all about you being all in. Yes. You got to be willing to say, I’m willing at times to have my feelings hurt in order to win a spouse’s heart and, and, and being able to grow together. Carlie and I, we’ve gone through time. We’ve gone through so many times in our marriage, especially when I was deployed that I would pray to God for that five or 10 minute phone call that I was authorized to have. We would, we would confess to where we were studying and we look forward, how can we cram in? You know, so many things that’s going on, you know, in our lives at the time, in the five or 10 minutes, we had to truly invest that time and not take time for granted. I think so many people because it gets so caught up in their mundane life that they just assume things are going to just happen naturally. But uh, we needed purpose in our heart and we need to tell ourselves am I going to be all in? And even though I don’t feel good at times, you know, there’s times I came home tired from work or whatever it is, responsibility is being a husband, you know, cutting the grass stuff. I don’t like to do you know what I mean? But I’m like, it’s not about me if I can pour into Carlie because I know that there’s other things I need from her that I’m gonna be all in, she’s gonna be all in. But then God makes the magic happen. And when I don’t mean like a spell, but he brings the energy of that, that that unity to where you’re like, man, we’re starting to speak each other’s language and the way we’re like, we know how we, how we tick and what kind of gets underneath their skin.

NICK: You guys explain that absolutely perfectly. Which leads us into the next thing, you know, I think one of the other aspects of really becoming one in marriage and this is something I think we all have to do is letting go of the past. You know, we all have things that the spouse has done or maybe things that we remember, how can not letting go of the past prohibit us, or prohibit a couple from becoming one in marriage?

CARLIE: I think one of the major ways that we’ve experienced that at times when it was mostly me, to be honest, that it tried to hold on to some things from the past. I noticed that my my growth in my mindset was very fixed, so meaning, there was no road. Let me rephrase that. So I had a really fixed mindset. So I was living out of an experienced acting as if the world was done, it was sealed, nothing could change. And I was not growing, I was not growing as a wife, I was not growing in my relationship with God, Is that a mother, a daughter? You know, all the things that I’m called to be in this life, I just sat in some of that at times and I’m glad that, you know, the bible is it’s a mirror, it shows you you really are. I can try to pretend all day long, I’m so awesome and I have this together and I read that and I’m like, wow, okay, I have a lot of work on over here. And so that was one of the big things like the understanding that I came too early on in our marriage, was that okay, I can choose to hold onto this and just remain in that and then that’s, that’s it. This is horrible. My marriage is going to be horrible. It’s going to end because I just can’t get over something that really, honestly you guys wasn’t even a big deal, like not at all, but in my mind, I had blown it up to be, but when I learned to let things go, I realized the growth that was occurring okay. Yeah. My feelings may have been hurt or a lot of times you guys, it wasn’t even just for giving my a lot of times was forgiving myself, so I was holding onto because I’m so hard on myself things and once I learned to let that stuff go and truly released it to God and there’s one in the releasing, I had to feel some pain, you know, I had to not be afraid of that. And there was times I went through maybe even anger or whatever. I had the experience, but healthy in a healthy way because I always had accountability for that stuff and then it was like all of a sudden I was like that much stronger and that much settled in my faith and my beliefs and what I wanted out of marriage and all these things. So for me, I realized it was just really either I’m going to be on a fixed mindset or I’m gonna have a growth one and I choose growth every time.

MIKE: Along with what Carlie was saying is so important. I know for me that I couldn’t, I had to tell myself, I did not want to live in my past whether, you know, whether there were good things or bad things, I wanted to become the man that God has called me to be. Though I didn’t remember I didn’t have that model to me, but I know I could never grow as a man as a husband without letting go of the past, whether they’re good or bad and say, you know what God you you you say in your word for me to love my wife as christ loved the church. That’s a that is a tough thing to do. How do I do that? It sounds good. But how do I do that? How do I give her what she needs at the right time? And that makes that’s where the choice comes in. It’s really important that you learn to forgive others and also forgive yourself. And that’s been a big challenge for me to forgive myself, letting things go and say, you know what move on, love it.

AMY: That’s been a really big challenge in our marriage. You know, letting go of the past and letting go of the little things and even the big things, there’s sometimes a lot of people are going through a really, really big hard things and they have to find that forgiveness and thank goodness that we have got God in our marriages because I don’t know how people do without him. And the whole forgiveness thing kind of leads us into the next thing. Not forgetting yourself in marriage is really important to becoming one. I think when we think of becoming one, we have to be one, just the two of us, but we can still be ourselves. How do we do that? And why is it so important?

CARLIE: That’s a good question. And that’s something I struggled with a long, for a long time personally. I felt like there were so many things from my past growing up in a household where there was violence and you know incarceration and just the normal, what I thought was normal. Once I left home and went to college was like whoa! I was literally living in like a version of hell on earth. I mean it was horrifying and I realized that I was almost like I was trying to overcompensate when we first got married for my horrible past and so I was doing everything to the point you guys trying to love and serve him in a way that he didn’t even know where the dishes went. You know, I mean it would be like and to be honest, I am Japanese. So there is that part that says kind of crazy about the cleanliness stuff. So I liked it but I didn’t realize I was trying to overcompensate for my past and for things that I was ashamed of or hadn’t forgiven myself for. And it wasn’t until I became a mom for the first time when we had our first child Hannah that I had a woman tell me, she just sat down a heart to heart, you know a lot of people give you unsolicited advice. But this time I was like you know what I could tell this woman was different. So I wanted to hear what she had to say. She told me two things she said. The first thing don’t wish the time away babies don’t keep, you cannot, oh I wish they were the stage of that age. Just love them at every stage of life. And the secondary thing for me that I got out of that, that she didn’t even say was I needed to do that for myself and my marriage. And so that’s when I started taking back time for myself. It was like, I would be up, you guys seriously sanitizing my house until 1:30 in the morning every day, and you got, honey, aren’t you tired? I’m like, I got to sanitize and it was, it was so crazy and once I took that time back for myself, I started to then just realize more of like how much I had lost Carlie in the shuffle and I’m not gonna lie ago that it kind of came and went throughout different seasons of life and I’m just now kind of returning back to myself in some other ways.

AMY: As the Children are getting older, you know, our youngest or now we have a 12 year old is our youngest, he’s almost 13, up to a 20 year old, our daughter just turned 20 and it’s like there’s a lot of in there, a lot of work, but I’m thankful that that understanding came to me, so taking care of myself, that’s like taking care of my or what, so when I wasn’t taking care of me, when I was sad or whatever I was doing, that was not, you know, I wasn’t living my best life, he felt that and our marriage, it was a detriment at times to our marriage.

I think a lot of people don’t realize that because we found ourself in the exact same situation, like I gave myself my four Children like all my time and attention and I let go myself for so many years that actually now I can look back and realize it was hurting our marriage because I was hurting, I was missing something but now that they’ve gone to an age where their own school and like we’re at a totally different stage of life now, we have teenagers now I have more time to give myself a little more time back and it’s not selfish, it’s healthy. And now I don’t know, you probably saw that in our marriage, like we finally after all, like so many years have found that balance.

NICK: What about setting goals together? Often times, you know, people kind of have their different individual goals that I think in many ways can keep you from becoming one. But I mean it’s pretty self explanatory question I guess, but how can setting goals together um in life and everything else help you become one? And how do you keep setting them continually?

CARLIE: That’s an awesome question, this is one of our favorite topics. Okay, so we definitely love that question, but I think what you said is very key. Some people don’t even set goals as individuals believe or not. I was a little taken back when I started learning that just because I’ve always been a goal center, but what we learned was that in order to set goals as a couple, we really did need to know what we wanted out of life at that particular moment in time, out of life, out of marriage, out of our relationship with God, our career, just whatever goals and desires that we had. We really needed some clarity on that. So that goal setting processes individuals is actually very important when you actually are going to come together and set goals as a couple. So for us, what we found is we actually couple. Do we have like a whole entire course on this, you guys? Because we really love this. Like this is a very big instrumental part of why we believe our marriage has been honestly so fulfilling and successful because we’ve come together, we learned to set goals. And for us everything is faith based. So for instance, we take time on that, like we’re praying about it, we’re talking it through um and we’re really sitting on what it is that we desire to make sure it’s not just a flighty thing, like right now I want this, you know. The way that we do this is we evaluate. So we’ll come together after we get the goals set when we come together and we re evaluate, you know every month, what’s working? What’s not working? Why is this working? Why is this not working? And we just kind of systematically do that. I’m just given the short version um and it’s been awesome because we’ve learned how to be graceful in it to not beat ourselves up. I used to our personalities were very high achieving people, so it’s like what do you mean? We didn’t get this goal, You know what I mean? Like I would be upset or attempted to be mad. We’ve learned how to do that gracefully.

MIKE: Yes. And along every step along the way we have learned to have healthy communication. This wasn’t a shouting match, This is you know this is what I want, this is you know what I mean? This is still Carlie would ask me the questions the deep questions that would make me really think not just a quick one answer, but asking more questions of why or how do you see this? And when I heard questions like that I’m like oh my gosh, I really have to respond. And as I’m responding all these feelings and her just showing you know, showing me that she cared, I was able to articulate what I was really thinking what was inside of me. And then we come together And so this creates healthy communication. Even there’s times when you write things, they might not go in the time frame that that we might have written it, but we’ve always learned something together that we can say, you know what? Not only that God works on me as an individual, but it worked on us as a team. And then these are things that we can look back upon because we’re going to go through scenes of life where let’s say people might not agree with your decisions. Why are you guys doing this? Everybody want to have an opinion. It’s funny when you have a goal, everyone has an opinion.

It seems that way. You know what I mean? And that’s when we have to press in and we need to say, you know what God has brought us together. We are either writing another chapter in our life. Are you guys still finishing that same chapter?

NICK: I love what you said and you hit on just being open with communication. I really think we talk about this all the time. And honestly the whole purpose of the app is communication. Whether it’s verbally emotionally spiritually. Almost everything can be solved with just open communication. And it really is that simple. If you’re having good discussions and talking about everything and being open, you really can probably solve most problems out there.

AMY: How often do you set new goals together? And how often do you go back over the goals that you have made?

CARLIE: That’s a good question. So typically, um, so consult for business. We take orderly, you know, but your personal life, to be honest, it’s just kind of when they need to be redone because once we achieve some goals, we realize, okay, it’s time to set some new ones and then evaluation points for us. We, it’s usually just going to be monthly because doing it any more than that because I was crazy and I wanted to do on a daily weekly, but over time I realized a little overbearing and a little crazy. So monthly for us is a good way to say, hey, you know, over everything, finances whatever, intimacy, communication, whatever we’re doing, right. Things were saying yes to things were saying no to, so for us that monthly has been a really good benchmark for us. And then we realized to, to be flexible on some goals that he said earlier, we may say, hey, I want this done in three months. This is God, we really feel like we can do this with your help. And then there’s times where guys just like, you know, that wasn’t what I said, timeframes off. So then we’ve learned to just say, okay, we’ve got to keep working on this. So this goal is extended, but now we have room for this other one. So I think it’s something that you find your rhythm.

MIKE: That’s really good. There’s no set time frame, You have to find your rhythm and that goes back to studying each other. You’ll kind of get that vibe like, hey, you know where we at on this and you guys talk about it and notice how God continually changes each of you as you communicate. The thing is, you can’t grow without healthy communication. You can’t, I can’t assume that Carly’s thinking this. I don’t know until I talked to her about it, You know what I mean? And so that’s the thing, I think you’ll get the vibe as you guys making it intention. That’s another thing with marriage, you have to be intentional on studying. You’re not only yourself, you got to know how it makes you tech, but you gotta learn how your spouse text and how to keep growing in that it’s not just a five minute prayer and that’s it. This is this is a daily thing. You know, there’s so many times that coming off coming home from work, you can get so tired, but it would be like, no, I have other responsibilities.

NICK: Well, so bringing us kind of into our final topic, which is the fun stuff I guess, um which is, you know, emotionally and physically, how have you found in your marriage that you guys can best connect to become one emotionally and physically, because those are so important. I mean, you have obviously the emotional aspect which we’ve hit on which is sitting down and really talking about things and emotional intimacy covers a wide variety of things. You know, the emotional intimacy is the spiritual intimacy, the financial intimacy which, you know, we won’t get into, but also the physical intimacy, which is so important to connect as a couple because God did make our bodies a certain way and he wants us to be intimate. He wants us to connect that way. And so what have you guys found in your marriage helps you, I guess, become one through through physical intimacy and emotional intimacy.

CARLIE: That’s a good question. I think one of the biggest things is like playing together, like not being so serious all the time. You know, I know there’s been different seasons of life that were a little more intense for us, like whether it was work, whether it was serving others. However, that was manifesting for us, it’s just always being played because I’m pretty silly and mike knows, I mean to the point where one of us, usually me, is crying at some point during the day because it’s so hard and now they’re taking it a little further than that. Even honestly like you know, for us I know for me as long as we have that barrier down where everything isn’t so serious and so formal and so structured. That makes me very open to my husband physically more than it is in the times if it works more intense and there’s like stress. So I know for me there has to be that playful side of stuff because it’s just I was just how I’m wired. That’s just a big part of me.

MIKE: All right. You done, honey? I’m joking. I’m joking. So that is uh and I know uh for husbands out there, okay. I’m speaking from that mentality for most husbands. Not all okay. Um I just think we’re wired. You know, typically as men were straightforward, you know What what we want. And that’s one thing, that’s one thing. One area I know specifically for me that physical touch is important. And not just holding hands and kissing, but no intimacy, like all the way intimacy. And so what I’ve learned over the 21 years in the beginning of marriage, I used to do the same things that I thought would get the same
results. I, you know, massaging my wife speed and, you know, trying to do laundry that I couldn’t do right and put the dishes in the wrong, you know, I put in the wrong spot. But I thought if I kept doing those same task, that I’ll get the same results. So then what I did, I would try to control situations or people and that backfired every single, no matter how I calculated, it didn’t happen. You know what I mean? And so what I have learned to do, I’m up front, it’s just my personal, it’s just the way I am. Carlie knows, Michael would love to have sex with me if everything rolls out. But then I have to learn all day. I need to learn how to love her and be playful and all the little things, you know what I mean? Especially, you know, she likes to do home and garden and, and decorate and for a while I’m just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Now I’m into that because I know that’s something that she loves. So she gives me what I want, need and I give her what she wants and needs. She wants that experience. And you know, I want the main event, you know what I mean? I know that, you know, husbands looking at that too. You know what I mean? And it helps us, there’s a release that happens that for men, it’s like you have a fulfilled day, you do everything else. You know, you can spend all the time with Jesus, but at the end you have that intimacy with your spouse. You get that awesome release and you guys just bond and that means a lot to me.

NICK: I love what you’re saying to because you and I are a lot of like, you know, my love languages, physical touch. So for me, I think one of the reasons I like intimacy so much is honestly, it’s not the sex aspect as much as it is just the bonding and I feel love that way and I love what you said as well, you know, hitting back on communication. You know, if you sit down and communicate and you say, hey, sweetie, here’s what I need and she can say, hey, here’s what I need. Then you can then you can help each other during the day. You know, part of that might be, you know, foreplay starting in the morning meaning, you know, you’re doing laundry and helping with the dishes and the kids and things like that and really have that communication and and understanding what your spouse needs and how you can serve them and likewise will really make that physical connection even that much better.

CARLIE: It took me a little bit of time to understand how much, like you had said a minute ago, how much of Michael’s emotional side was connected to that bonding. I didn’t understand it. And so once I came to understand that, then I took it a little more seriously in the times or maybe I was tired from nursing babies and doing whatever the things that moms tend to get tired from. Um and it was like, it’s an ongoing thing. Like Michael has talked about so many times just studying each other, the seasons change. We have to learn how to love and minister to each other and every season and good communication like you guys talk about all the time and we do too. Just that it’s imperative because if I’m not communicating what I need to my husband, he’s not a mind reader, he can observe me and study me. But he’s still not me only. I know what’s here and here truly. And so that’s where I love that communication comes in so we can love each other fully. Like you guys are talking about mind, body and spirit. That’s the best way to understand what a lifelong marriage looks like. It’s just constantly working in those three areas.

MIKE: Sure, this real quick also with that I want to make it clearer. Clearest known that physical intimacy. It’s an expression alright, there’s no control behind it. I say this, you give me this is not like that. And I’m the reason why I’m saying that when we first got married, I had several godly men that pointed out scriptures that pretty much said your wife has to do with, she needs to submit to you, especially in that area. And I knew even then that that was wrong, but I’ve learned that it’s not about that, it’s about us studying each other and God knows what you need and he will feel that as you continually communicate, work together

NICK: Wonderful. Well this has been, yeah, this has been an incredible interview and just kind of recap things that we’ve talked about to become more one in marriage, you know, is, you know, really take the time and invest in your spouse, like you guys have said, figure out ways to let go of the past, whether it’s with your spouse or with certain things in that you’re dealing with in your life, it’s really tough to, you know, love your spouse if you’re beating yourself up and can’t love yourself or, you know, learning to let go of the past, not forgetting your own needs as you guys talked about as well as it’s it’s okay to take care of our own needs because if we’re not in a good place, we’re not going to be able to serve our spouse or provide them the things that they need, and setting goals together, sitting down, having that communication, really setting goals together, And then also the physical and emotional aspect as well, which will you know, have other podcasts to really dive in deeper about as well. But thank you so much both for your time today. Where can the listeners find you guys at?

CARLIE: I think the easiest places, our website marriage legacy builders. com and we’re on instagram and yeah, that’s that’s really the best place.

NICK: And you can find a lot of information as well on the app. We have Mike and Carlie under our podcast section as well as several other sections. As I mentioned before, we have a lot of articles that they’ve done. We really feel like they can offer a lot of great insight and things to help your relationship grow as well. So, thank you again so much for being on with us today. I can’t thank you enough and we look forward to hopefully doing this again real soon!

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