Ultimate Intimacy Podcast Transcript Episode 36
Listen HERE: https://ultimateintimacy.com/podcast/
Speaker 4: You are listening to the Ultimate Intimacy podcast where we discuss how to find ultimate intimacy in your relationship. We believe that no matter how many years you’ve been married, you can achieve passion, romance, happiness, and ultimate intimacy at any stage of your life. Join us as we talk to not only marriage experts, but couples just like yourself and people who are just flat out fun. The ultimate intimacy podcast is for couples who have a good relationship but want to make it even better.
We are so excited for this topic and especially for our guests today, we have Oliver and Denise Marcelle on here and they are speakers, authors and coaches, and they are the podcasters of Trade Secrets Podcast. We welcome you today, we’re so excited to have you and for you to share your expertise, and thank you for being here!
Speaker 2: Thank you for having us. We are so excited about this!
Speaker 4: We are really excited and I’m just going to jump right in because I know we have lots to talk about today, but I was going through a bunch of your stuff and I found a quote that you guys shared and it said:
“In marriage, sex is like food. It is a basic need, VITAL for survival and it should be healthy, enjoyable and frequent. If it is not enjoyable, it’ll feel like a chore. If it is not frequent, you will feel starved, and if it’s not healthy, it can cause harm.
Make sure that you have all 3 in your sex life!”
Those, those three things just jumped out at me! That is such a good quote!
Speaker 3: …and it’s so true. I know a lot of people out there, we’re probably rolling their eyes saying really? sex is vital for survival? Just as you have to feed your body with food to survive, intimacy is vital for a strong marriage. If you look at people that have really good marriages, they’re having a lot of sexual intimacy, they’re connecting all the time. That that is something that God designed and the way for us to connect as a couple. If you are struggling with different things and I think we all kind of go like this through life in a roller coaster, there is usually a lack of intimacy of some kind.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that’s true. I love what you said. Often what we do is we look at the cookie cutter way of intimacy and what sex has been pushed out to be like and if we don’t feel like we fit into that, then we’re like, oh, well, you know what they’re talking about is crazy, but it’s relative, right? So that’s just like what you’re going to have for dinner today. It’s probably way different than what we’re going to have for dinner today. It’s the same way with intimacy, what works for you and how and you’re building process and your nourishment as it relates to that. It’s going to be different than the next couple, but it is vital. I love that.
Speaker 1: So true.
Speaker 3: It’s not the same for everyone. Every couple is going through different circumstances, different things in life. But the one thing that is certain of one thing that is common is that, that sexual intimacy is the glue that holds couples together.
Speaker 2: That’s right. It is, and you have to have it. So, going back to the quote, right, if you think about what I just said, right, we’re both going to have something different for dinner, right? Neither of us are going to skip dinner because that’s important to us, but it may not look the same, but, you know, it’s vital and, and it has to be a part of your existence if you’re trying to develop a holistic healthy relationship, intimacy has to be a part and it’s not just sexual intimacy that we’re talking about sex today, obviously, but there are other legs to that, right? So I do know people who do this. I do know people who only eat chicken breasts for dinner because that’s just the kind of diet they’re on right now, but generally there are some other pieces, There’s some other components to your dinner or your lunch or whatever you’re going to have right, you may have some juice on the side, you may have a dinner roll or whatever it is. And it’s the same way with intimacy. There are certain aspects of that, the emotional piece, the physical piece that doesn’t include sex, the intellectual piece, the experiential piece, There’s so many other pieces right there as you begin to feed those naturally the rest of that meal to keep it in this context is going to be great.
Speaker 3: So a lot of people out there are saying, okay, you know, we hear all the time how important sex is, but to make it very simple, why is sex so vital for survival? I mean, what is it?
I think, I think it’s so important because and it’s so vital and it makes your relationship not feel complete when it’s lacking is because it is God ordained.
That’s how God meant for it to be. And so when it’s lacking, we naturally feel that lack because God naturally put that in us. That makes it vital.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that’s good. It’s part of the fabric of what makes up the relationship that God intended, right? And so if you’re missing, if there is a avoid or a gap there, you’re going to feel that. And so that’s why it’s so important. And here’s the thing, right? Because I know you guys are in this space heavy. So I know you see couples all the time that so are so quick to just bought against that for some reason, right? That alone for me is an indicator of how crucial it is because if it wasn’t that crucial, we wouldn’t have this feeling that makes us so adamant against what it’s supposed to be like, You know? For me, often when we sit with couples and we see the tension were like, listen, there’s a fix for this, what you just can’t be is too stubborn to see that right? You can’t think of it, you have to change your perspective, you can’t think of it like this is a chore. This is something on my to do list.
Speaker 1: I have to get that to do item out of the way because it’s just part of what I need to do as a husband or wife. I just need to make sure I check that off the list.
Speaker 2: If that’s your perspective, your approach is going to follow. I’m gonna tell you that right now and when I go to do the dishes, it feels like a chore. So I’m not whistling and dancing like she’s doing, she’s whistling and dancing. That’s not my perspective. So my approach is not like that.
It is vital for survival IF you want a really awesome marriage…
because we do know marriages and no couples that sex is not part of their marriage and it doesn’t mean that they don’t make their marriage work. But I can tell you it is a fact that their marriage is not passionate, it is not romantic and they are not connected on an emotional level. When we got married we wanted that in our marriage. So yeah, you can definitely kick the sex out, but your marriage will suffer in so many areas.
Speaker 3: When we say survival, you know, we understand that you’re not literally going to die, but your marriage is going to die intimately.
Speaker 4: it’s just going to be completely lacking intimacy.
Speaker 4: We have seen in some relationships, divorce because either the wife or the husband says, I am not going to be sexually intimate, that’s not going be part of the marriage and that does not work. I love what you said about that, that God gave us this gift. It brings us together. It brings unity. It brings that oneness. It is vital to to a really happy marriage.
Speaker 2: It is, and I love that you brought that balance out, right? There are couples who that is for one of one reason or another, that is their choice to leave sex out.. But if we if we put it in the context of the quote, right, you can choose, I’ll use my son as an example: Growing up, my son just wanted to eat french fries and macaroni and cheese, he can survive on that. Like, he’s not going die because he’s eating that, but the nutrition balance is off, and if you’re okay with that, then okay, I don’t know what to tell you, but typically we’re not okay with that and you don’t even take it a step further. It could down the road, you could be okay for years, that nutrition imbalance. But down the road, you may experience some health issues after doing that for years and years and years. And it’s the same way with intimacy. You can think that you’re right, right? So you can pull that out of the equation if you want. But there will be some evidence of its lack down the road.
That’s a great analogy and whether it’s the nutrition in your diet, or the sex in your marriage, it will damage you in some way if you are not getting it.
Speaker 3: And if you look at the cause of divorce, lack of intimacy is one of the leading cause of divorce is so you can see that it literally is a necessity in marriage for a marriage to survive. For many people, it is much of that. I agree, 100%. And we do our best to communicate that couples that we come in contact with, because it’s important, it changes the atmosphere of your relationship, right? And who wouldn’t want to just feel that lovely air that accompanies, you know, when your relationship is moving in the direction that you wanted to.
Speaker 4: So true, and it’s so obvious when you are being passionate and having that sexual intimacy intermarriage, there is such a difference and you can feel that, like you said,
Why is it so important for sex to be enjoyable for couples? Why is that so important?
Speaker 1: I mean it has to be enjoyable, if I’m not going to enjoy it, if I’m doing it but I’m not enjoying it, it’s going to start to feel like a chore and eventually I’m going to start to be resentful, “I have to do this, but I really don’t like doing it, but I know that he wants to do it or he needs it,” it’s going to feel like a chore to me, and I’m going to become resentful after a while.
Speaker 2: It has to be enjoyable. I think the way to make sure that it obviously, you know, there are sometimes medical reasons why it’s not enjoyable and that definitely has to be addressed and looked into, you know, psychological reasons, mental reasons whatever happened in your past could even affect why it’s not enjoyable. All of those reasons have to be looked at, but it’s super important that it is enjoyable because I don’t want to start to become resentful towards him. I don’t want it to feel like a chore. It is something that you have to talk about with your spouse, talk about what is enjoyable, What is not enjoyable? What would you prefer? What would you rather? And vice versa.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that.
It has to be enjoyable because the sentiment and the emotion that is attached to building intimacy, if it’s not enjoyable that colors the rest of the environment of your relationship. Right?
And so, and so you want to be able to go into something, I tell couples all the time, nobody married somebody they hate. So how do you continue to maintain and build upon that emotion and that atmosphere and that, that environment that was created? You want to enjoy things with your spouse and there are some other components that that feed into that. The ability to communicate effectively, the ability to resolve conflict, you know, effectively and to forgive and to create leisure moments and to build intimacy on other levels allows you to come into sex already. Like “ hey, I love being around this person. So this is just one other thing that we can enjoy together.”
Speaker 3: I love what you said previously Denise about communication. That is Amy’s and my story and we talked about that all the time. You know, not to bore everyone with the back story because everyone’s heard it, but in our marriage, we weren’t communicating really well. And so the sex was kind of lacking excitement on her part as well as other things, many other things in the marriage, but the second we started opening up and talking about sexual intimacy and mostly emotional intimacy, and different things like that, The relationship completely changed now. It didn’t make everything perfect, but it changed things in a huge way to where everything sexual and emotional just became a million times better. And I loved how you hit on communication because literally with the couples, all the couples out there listening… if there is something holding you back with intimacy together as a couple, if you sit down and communicate and talk about that, you’ll be amazed at how so many aspects of your life, both physically and emotionally will get better. I love how you hit on intimacy because it really is if couples really will just sit down and talk about sex and like you said, what can we do to make our sex life more enjoyable? If you really express, what do you need in the bedroom, what do you need for me? I think as Christians, sometimes we often feel like that’s a taboo thing to talk about that, you know, we really can’t go there, but that is nothing could be further from the truth as, as we’ve talked about you guys said, you know, this is ordained of God, God wants us to be intimate, this is a way to connect and he wants that. So having that open communication, really sitting down and talking openly about what the needs are. It’s amazing how that’ll fix so many things and or at least getting, get that the direction of, you know, healing in a bunch of ways.
Speaker 4: Because you said it’s so vital for it to be enjoyable because if it’s not, it feels like a chore, I think for a lot of women and not all women, some men, but for a lot of women, especially if you have kids and your mom and you work too, I feel like we have so many chores, we take care of the kids and sometimes a lot of sometimes our mindset, I just have one more person to take care of. It’s so important for us to make sure that we don’t get to that point number one, and if we do then we do communicate with our spouse about it. But if we get to that point or start feeling like we’re getting to that point, where is becoming a chore, just one more person to take care of, or one more thing to check off our to do list at the end of the day, whatever that is, where we need to maybe bring back a little selfishness and be like, I’ve got to figure out ways that I’m going to love it and it’s going to become exciting again for me and like in our story, I said I need some change or I need this. And then we created the app, it’s all like for sure comes down to communication and making sure that both of you and are always talking about making it enjoyable and not letting it get boring.
I think to just the right mindset or the right perception can change everything… you know, we’ve heard stories of people that absolutely the spouse did not want anything to do with sex and just by changing their perception and their mindset now, they’re the one that wants the sexual intimacy all the time.
And so quite often it is just how we’re looking at things and how we’re feeling about things and just changing our attitude and our mindset and our perception about things.
Speaker 1: I totally agree the whole communication thing was an issue for us as well. And that really was a block or a barrier when it came to sexual intimacy. And it wasn’t until I talked to him and addressed, you know, what the issues was. And I had, you know, I was bringing stuff from my past into why it was difficult for me to enjoy sex with Oli as much. And it wasn’t until we had that conversation, that thing’s flipped. And he started to understand that he was more understanding and asking me what do you need from me. And that was super important because now we can re-address what the issue was. He recognized that I had needs, that he wasn’t addressing and that totally flipped the switch for us and made the whole difference, it didn’t completely fix things right away, but it changed the trajectory, uh, the way the relationship was going and that was huge for us.
Speaker 2: That’s a big one in the mindset piece that you brought up is a big one as well, because again, what your perspective is going to color your approach, right? So if sex and building intimacy is in the same category as cleaning the kitchen, it has to be done. That’s the approach, right?
We have to now begin to look at the time that we’re building with our spouses as time, that is prioritized at a way higher level than anything else. It’s special.
It’s so to keep it in the in the vein of the meal thing, it’s thanksgiving as opposed to just Thursday’s dinner, right? And if we if we always look at that and I’m always excited about this time that I’m going to have with Denise and I’m looking forward to it. And all of the other chores that I’m doing. I’m scrambling to get done because I know that this time is going be special. It’s going be a time for me to just kind of rest in in in the beauty of spending time with the person that I love the most, that’s going to be a very different kind of approach that you take then if you’re like, oh, here we go again kind of thing.
Speaker 3: So true. Well, if you’re listening to this podcast, you just heard this is one of the reasons why we love doing this podcast. You’re, you’re listening to real life experiences from people that have been through the same thing that you’re going through. I think oftentimes, you know, we, we listen to marriage coaches or experts and we feel like they’ve never really been through the same things that we have. But you know, we’re, that’s the point of this podcast, is to share the things that, you know, we’ve been through and we’ve struggled just as you’re sharing as well. And it’s so great because people, we can, you can understand that we’ve been through the same things you, that you guys have out there as well. And uh, you know, hopefully the, what we’re sharing with, how we’ve overcome things can help you in your lives as well.
Speaker 4: It’s naturally always overcoming things just because you get to a really good point doesn’t mean your marriage is going to stay perfect is perfect. It’s such a continual work. Yeah. Always putting work in, no matter how good things were getting, that’s true.
Speaker 3: A question we get asked a lot and I don’t know that there’s a right or wrong answer to. But what, you know, why is frequency, sexual frequency and marriage so important? And maybe what is the ideal frequency? And I know that’s kind of a loaded question because there is no everyone is different, like you said, starting out. But what why is frequency and marriage so important, I guess. And that frequency could be different for every couple.
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Frequency is important because frequency allows you some level of consistent flow.
The things that are important to you, right? Typically there, if you look at them, there’s some level of consistency. If it’s important for you to go to the gym, you’re probably not going once a month, right? If it’s important for you, whatever it is, that’s important to you. There’s some level of consistency there. That helps to guard your excitement and you’re ability to stay engaged. And so it’s the same with specs, right? There has to be some level of frequency and it’s, you know, you’re right, you said that it’s determined by the couple, right? But it has to be some level of consistency there or you become disengaged. If you’re not holding it to that high level that we just talked about, then it’s like a trickle down effect. This thing is super important to me. So, I’m going to make sure that it’s happening quite often as it happens quite often. There is that level of consistency that fuels my energy and my excitement to keep it at a high priority level. And it’s just that cycle that continues to keep going
Speaker 1: The cycle can be the other way as well. It’s exactly consistent. Then I’m going to start to feel rejected because I want it to be more consistent. I’m going to start to feel rejected and my feeling rejected is going to start again, then my resentment is going to be projected onto you and then you’re going to feel defensive and that’s the negative.
For a lot of folks, I’ve heard everything you can imagine. I heard somebody recently say if you’re having sex once a week, you’re in a sexless marriage. I was like, “that’s a heavy and crazy judgment call to make!” I don’t know if that’s the case or not… And then I’ve heard all the way up to, you have people who we sat with a couple, uh, not too long ago. And this is, it was an issue for them, the frequency thing and we’ve experienced this, this desire discrepancy where one person has a higher drive than the other, right? And so one person, one, the wife was saying, man, I’m I’m looking for like 3-4 times a week and the guy looked at looked at her and was like, that’s, that’s single life. Yeah. Oh, I think I think to answer that question, it goes back to what we were talking about. You have to communicate. You have to take the time to engage and learn your spouse, right? Because what the what the frequency level is that you come up with today may be different. Yeah. Five years from now, Right? And so continuing to have that dialogue, We tell couples this all the time.
Don’t leave anything to chance, talk about about everything.
Speaker 3: Yeah. It’s just going to say to I think I think too, so important for couples both to recognize that sex is so much more than just having sex. Like there’s so many, so many more things like sex to me, like there is nothing better than being intimate with my wife. And it’s not because it’s just the sex part. It’s like the connection and the bond that I feel that both physically and spiritually and so many other aspects and every other aspect of my life is completely better, My self confidence, my ability to do things, everything is better when our intimacy is good. And I don’t know why that is. I just know that it is. And so there’s so many, there’s so many health benefits. There’s so many mental benefits. There’s so many spiritual benefits of being intimate more often. And you know, God knew what he was doing when he when he designed us that way.
Speaker 2: I’m glad you said that. Because often when we when we talk sex and you hear sex you’re thinking intercourse, but there’s so much bigger than that. I mean there is there is some and don’t get me to quote, but
There is there’s something scientific about just your skin touching.
Yeah. And just that embrace and feeling the warmth of this person you love next to you and the endorphins and what it does for your mental stamina. I mean there’s so much more to this and I love that you brought that out and if couples would explore that right? Take time to explore what sex is for you outside of intercourse. Being able to create a bond. Being able to create an experience that puts you in the same place and gives you a common goal, whatever that experience might be right and begin to explore and learn and talk about how that felt. And you know, I’ll tell her often like, man, I love when you just were just rubbing my chest, I just call me all the way down like have those conversations so that you can learn your spouse and be able to incorporate these experiences that aren’t always intercourse and you know, praise God, they may lead to it, but it doesn’t always have to be that right? And so I love that you brought that out. That’s awesome.
Speaker 4: I wanted to add, I just think it’s super important also in this topic to
Do not compare yourself to other marriages.
Like I think a lot of times they’re like, you hear like twice a week or once a week or four times a week. We interviewed someone that said they had sex almost every single night of the week. And of course my husband’s like, well is that normal? And I’m like, no, no, we can’t do, like it’s really, it is, it’s really important to realize what’s going on in your life and the stresses and the way things are affecting and we have different personalities, we have different health conditions and it’s just so important to not judge your marriage against other people’s marriages because you’re so, you’re so unique trying to find what works for you for both of you and talking if you needed this much and I don’t want it this much or vice versa, let’s find this really good balance and let’s discuss why and how we can work around these things and if you need it more I’m willing to give, but I could use something more in this area.
Speaker 3: I hate using this word negotiate, because it sounds like a business negotiation.
Yeah. Sit down and talk because I know when were being intimate a lot and you correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m stepping it up in so many other areas because I’m like, man, she’s just so good to me, she recognizes how important that is to me and I want to do everything I can to step it up and show her how much I appreciate it and care. And I think going back, that’s why you see that marriages that are very, very happy typically are having a lot of intimacy and so they kind of figured out, you know, maybe the wife doesn’t want it all the time and I know sometimes it’s different, the wife wants more than a husband, but whatever it is, if one of the spouses lower drive spouse, there’s still some give and take because you love each other and you recognize why this is so important to your spouse and why this is so important to the other, you know what I mean? Like so it’s kind of, you know, find that balance and um like Amy said figure out kind of what works in your relationship and there’s, there’s always gonna be a little bit of give and take, but that’s what life is.
Speaker 2: You know that’s what it is. And I actually love that word negotiation and we also have to understand too that I told a couple of this the other day I said, listen, you want the ball to start rolling, right, Somebody has to kick the ball, yes, like we can’t both look at each other and be like, well we need the ball to start rolling and nobody just, nobody is like, okay, let me just push it right? Because here’s the thing that we don’t want to generalize, but let’s, I will a little bit. So just to use just to use the example that you just gave right? When you’re intimate, you talked about how that just fuels your energy Right? So that often is the case for us with guys. It’s a, there’s a motivator and, and we’ve talked about it too. There’s a motivator often that kicks in because of guys approach to sex, right? Women. There’s an emotional component that feeds into their ability to feel wanted and ready, right? For us. That always isn’t there. That for us often that comes on the back end. So now on the back end because she’ll tell you, you know, after sex, I’m running around the house, I’m clean the windows. You know what I’m saying? Like what’s got into this guy, you know, never know before. Uh, Oh, you need the house painted. Let me go take care of that.
Speaker 2: Let me let me knock that out for you. But and we have to ask couples, we’ve got to understand that, right? And the ability to kind of laugh and joke as we’re doing about it. You’re doing it with it now helps to foster the kind of conversation that we need, you know, I explained that. I explained it to her and I’m gonna go into super detail but I likened it to, we’re talking about why is it so important to me? We’re having a conversation one day and I was a video gamer. I haven’t played in a long time but I like these first person shooters and you know when you go through these missions even though you may get shot at and hurt and whatever, but you may walk into a room and you see the the little first aid box, their room and then when you go to the first aid box that gives you some more life, right? And I told her I was like that’s what it is for me. Like as I’m kind of pushing through and fighting through and trying to figure this out in life and trying to figure that out. I was like boom this were intimate and man I get a little bit of extra life and just as in the video game right? And just as in the video game right? You may get that life and depending on where you are, it may feel you all the way up that one box. But depending on how depleted you’ve been, that one box may only fill you up a quarter of the way and you have to go look for another one and that’s where the conversation comes in as a relation to frequency and what’s needed and why it’s needed. We have to be open and honest with each other about what, what it is and then we can build once we know what, what’s on the table.
Speaker 3: And I think two of our is a couple as you talk about it and talk about how important it is.
Speaker 3: Sometimes we don’t we don’t express to our spouse how important intimacy is. And I again, I understand both goes both ways. Sometimes it’s the woman that, but you know, it’s just like you said, it does something for us that lifts us up. It just, you know, it’s that life support that, that we needed at the right time and at the right moment. And so we just encourage everyone out there. You know, rather than putting the fence up and and making this a topic that you don’t talk about. Really sit down with your spouse talk about this talk about, you know why you’re maybe you’re feeling the way you’re filling or what the what the things are. They’re keeping you from having ultimate intimacy and really, really figure those things out.
Speaker 4: Yes. So we have already discussed how important it is for survival and how important it is to be enjoyable and frequent,
Why is it so important that your sex is healthy and what would cause a couple sexual intimacy to be unhealthy and how can that be changed?
We don’t need to spend a whole lot of time on that. I feel like that’s a whole other podcast,
Speaker 4: I think that all starts with communication and making sure we have talked, about different backgrounds, we have things that trauma triggers all sorts of things that happened. A lot of different people. I think it’s important to just talk about it and that’s the first step.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that that’s important and you talked about that, you know, making sure that those things are addressed and are unpacked and you heal from those things outside of those things. Sometimes it can be helped unhealthy just merely based on our motive or the fact that I’m selfish, right? And I’m just trying to get my needs met. That’s something that, that was early on for us was an issue, right? Just like I got into, yeah, I got into this because there’s some things I need you to do for me and I’m not thinking about meeting her needs or serving her and and being this person for her that she needs. I’m just trying to get what I want and so that can often lead to an unhealthy sex life. And then at some point, somebody’s going to feel like, oh, well I’m just always giving and they’re just always taking. And now that will lead us, you know, to a place of being unhealthy. And once something is unhealthy, now you’re fighting what you’re fighting the symptoms that it cost as opposed to now you’re not even spending time trying to figure out how do we get great intimacy? But now we’re fighting more. So now we’ve got to deal with the fact that we’re fighting more, or now we don’t talk as much. And so there’s so many other offshoots of that just based on the fact that I was just too selfish too to recognize that she has some needs and that I should be about the business of meeting those needs.
Speaker 1: I think two, is unhealthy is and you touched on this before… is the whole comparison trap. If I’m comparison comeback, preparing myself for our relationship to someone else’s, then what does that say about our relationship that I’m dissatisfied with so much. Why are we not addressing that? And instead I’m trying to incorporate someone else. This relationship into ours, Like the whole comparison thing, comparison kills, it will kill your relationship. And so I think that it’s unhealthy to compare yourself or your relationship to someone else’s instead of addressing what it is that you’re unfulfilled within your own relationship or dissatisfied within your own relationship instead of trying to fix that and address that comparing yourself to someone else and wondering what someone else’s relationship looks like, That’s very unhealthy.
Speaker 2: That’s true because you don’t know what their circumstances are, right? So in the vein of the meal analogy, right? Somebody on the Baltimore Ravens, It needs, you know, 10,000 calories a day If I eat 10,000 calories you know, I’m not gonna live too long. You know? And so just you can’t do that. You’ve got to really focus in on identifying what the needs are for both of us. Talking through what those needs look like being being in in the I read this thing that talked about becoming a servant lover and really kind of giving of yourself in this way of okay, how can I serve you in a way that fills your deeds that makes you happy, that gives you the fulfillment that you’re looking for. And once we do that for each other, it becomes that cyclical process that allows us to survive, allows us to enjoy and allows us to drive, as was
Speaker 3: Very well said, I love that you brought that up comparing because I think that is such a big problem that’s not talked about. Amy and I talk about it all the time, you know, people are looking at social media and saying man, they have the best marriage, they’re perfect, why can’t our life be like that? And I think it happens way more often than we realize. I mean, I think a lot of couples fall into that us included. I mean we’re no different. Like, you know, you look at other people’s lives and relationships and start comparing and the second you start comparing you’re in trouble and how could that not hurt your relationship? And so I’m so glad you brought that up. And so everyone listening out there, you know, recognize, you know, is that one of the things that’s causing maybe some of the feelings that you’re having or or holding things back because you know, you’re feeling those feelings. And so there’s so much more we could it talk on today, we’re going to have to have you guys on again. But we we absolutely have loved visiting with you and I would love to have you on again, but tell our listeners um where they can find you and learn more about you and contact you.
You can find Denise and oliver on social media @denolillc
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