This is the transcript from the Ultimate Intimacy Podcast episode 211. There Is Hope In Recovering From Porn Part 2.. From Jason’s Wife’s Perspective. If you want to listen to the podcast, just click the button below.
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HOSTS: 0:59
Jennifer and hear her perspective and her side of things, and I think this is going to be a fantastic podcast. Before we jumped on, we kind of talked about how you know, a lot of times when a husband’s dealing with porn, we only hear the husband’s side of things or feel like he’s the one really struggling, when in fact it’s probably more so the wives that are struggling and all the things that they’re dealing with as well, and that’s never talked about. And we constantly get asked from women and wives that are dealing with this in their relationship. You know advice or what to do, and so we really really appreciate you coming on with us today. Thank you so much, jennifer. Pleasure to have you on the podcast with us.
JENNIFER: 1:46
I’m glad to be here. I’m very hopeful that this will be an encouragement to all of you wives listening out there that you are not alone. Someone else has been where you are and I have resources and thoughts to help you.
HOSTS: 2:01
Wonderful, that’s fantastic. Well, I think we’ll kind of pick up where we left off on the previous one, because everyone’s going to be just getting done finishing listening to that one and then going into this one, but I think starting out. So we’ve heard. We’ve heard, obviously, jason, your husband. When did he bring all this up to you? Was this brought up before you got married? Did you find out after you got married? Kind of take us through that.
JENNIFER: 2:32
Surprisingly to many of you listening, it was actually before I even started dating him. He was interested in pursuing something and I was not interested back until I heard a public testimony of him, and his first I guess you can call it success in dealing with it. So it was his public testimony of I have this problem. I now am walking in victory right now and I just want you guys out listening to know that, yeah, there’s hope. So I heard that from my husband well, at the time non-husband and I immediately thought, okay, that is a guy I am interested in. Now that may seem unusual, but the reality is what’s the current statistic? Is it 50% of men or 60% of men struggle with this?
HOSTS: 3:27
Yeah, I think it’s even upward of that, probably in the 60s.
Speaker 1: 3:30
Yeah, I don’t know for sure the exact.
JENNIFER: 3:34
But the reality is most meant to have this struggle. So finding a guy who was willing to admit upfront, publicly yes, this is a struggle of mine gave me the confidence that he was willing to deal with it if it came up again in his life, rather than try to hide it. Now you’ll hear later that wasn’t exactly the case, but I had confidence in the beginning that he was willing to fight. This was a guy who wasn’t willing to accept things how they were. He was willing to put in the effort and knew that looking at porn was not going to be good for his life or any relationship. So I knew even before we started dating that this was an issue of his, and it was actually probably his honesty about that particular topic, amongst other things, that originally attracted me to him.
HOSTS: 4:26
That’s awesome and amazing because I think the general thing which most men do is probably try to hide it and really keep it, and a lot of times it’s the wife that finds out and then they have to come clean. So that’s pretty amazing that he was so willing to be forthright even before he got married.
JENNIFER: 4:44
Yes, yes. So communication has been something that I have appreciated with him from the beginning. It hasn’t always been the greatest, but, yeah, that’s one of his original attractions to me. So, yeah, I knew going in that he had issues with it, but there was also a few other things that I was acknowledging on my end that we, as humans, all have our own issues. So I knew going in that I was going to have things that I struggled with and he needed to know that ahead of time. So it’s not just the what’s the word I’m looking for. This is not a problem that is horrible and no good and okay, I’m going to start all over again.
HOSTS: 5:38
No you’re totally good.
JENNIFER: 5:46
So, yes, pornography addiction is a problem, but I was seeing it as a I’m trying to figure how to say this the best way I was seeing it as a another issue that we as Christians, as humans, just have to deal with as sin problems. So it’s it’s. It’s something that we all have to deal with. It’s not unique to one particular person. So I have issues, he has issues, and then I also had to remember that no man is perfect, and that was another thing that I had to deal with, also going through my years of marriage. So, yeah, all of that was thoughts that I had as I went into this relationship that is going to be an honest one, and it’s going to be, yes, a real or raw one, but at least we’re both aware that we have speed of play.
HOSTS: 6:45
Yeah, yeah, interesting. So sounds like your reaction was more of like okay, he was honest with me. I know this is something that people deal with. Let’s let’s try to deal with it together is what it sounds like, right.
JENNIFER: 6:58
Yes.
HOSTS: 6:59
That’s, that’s pretty amazing. I mean pretty awesome. So what? What was your view on porn or what is your view on porn? How do you look at porn? Do you feel like that’s it’s cheating or like what? What is your personal thoughts about porn? Cause I know I know every couple looks at it different. Some couples are like, oh, this is totally cheating. Other couples look at it and say, well, it’s not cheating, but you know it’s this. What are your thoughts in your relationship about porn and what it is?
JENNIFER: 7:31
Okay, well, to answer that question, I’m going to take you to the first time he fell because I knew, going into this relationship, that it was a possibility. I was hoping it wouldn’t be, but it was a possibility and it happened when we were engaged. He was traveling and then he came back and the first conversation we had was, I have to tell you, I fell. I, I looked at porn and, yes, my immediate thought was he did cheat because, even though we were not married yet, yeah, we were engaged. Porn. My definition of cheating is anything that you try, anytime you try, to find sexual pleasure in any person other than the one you’re in a relationship with. So, by that definition, he was trying to find sexual pleasure through porn and not with any kind of interaction with me. So, yes, that was cheating. And, of course, I felt betrayed, I felt grief, I felt bewildered, or like we’re engaged. You just asked me a couple of months ago why in the world is this happening? What’s it going to be like when we’re married? Are you going to be thinking about those women instead of me? And so I written that counseling, but not extensive, which I’ll get to later and having to deal with all of that the betrayal wasn’t actually as bad as when it happened right after we got married and we’re after we got. We were married a few years and things were going great. We had a great intimate relationship. But then, after a few months of him drifting away emotionally, I caught him. Now this was not him coming to me, but I caught him. That time hit me harder. That time I had to deal with, yes, betrayal again, and this time it hit harder because of how much closer we had gotten. But I also felt violated. I did not want him to touch me physically because that made me feel disgusting. I felt ugly. I was swinging between thoughts of anorexic type behaviors and I’m just gonna completely let myself go because he doesn’t really care what I look like. He wants to look at these other women over here. I was angry. I was alone, very much alone, and had no one to turn to except my God. And it took me a while to be willing to enjoy physical touch from my husband again. It was my definition of a while was probably several weeks. So we would sit on the couch next to each other and he would try to start the emotional connection again, but the physical connection I was just not willing and open to engaging until he had regained my trust, because that was another thing Trust broken. He had been lying to me for months and that to this day is probably the biggest issue I’ve had with his and our experience with his struggle with porn is the lack of honesty when it comes to him hiding it. So, yes, definitely cheating, and all of those feelings that come out of that experience. It’s a lot. I mean, who would think that a husband’s behavior would cause his wife to become anorexic or bulimic or just actually even being angry at God and having a faith struggle too, but that all came out of it.
HOSTS: 12:03
What I’m hearing and it sounds like. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you started maybe blaming yourself for saying what’s wrong with me, which I think is a common thing for women to do, which they absolutely shouldn’t, I mean, but I think that’s a pretty common thing. The happens is they say OK, is there something wrong with me? Why is he not desiring me? Why is he desiring these videos or pictures or what have you?
HOSTS: 12:34
I think what I got out of that was that you realized that the emotional intimacy started to slack before it got to that point. Is that correct? So could you see that coming at that time, or was it later, when you caught it, that you realized that emotional intimacy was lacking? Because that’s obviously where it always starts, correct?
JENNIFER: 13:02
Yes, I would describe it like this, and I was blindsided that first time. But as our marriage progressed I was able to see the signs and know he’s in porn again. I would say the emotional intimacy is sliding before he ever looks at porn. And the fact that we’re not being intentional about that intimacy doesn’t make it foolproof, but makes it easier for him to stay faithful and not look at porn. So it’s a focus of his. If his focus is not on our relationship or it needs to be and he’s just sitting back and letting whatever happen, then it’s easier for him to look at porn. So yes, the emotional intimacy starts slipping a little bit, but it’s not all the time true, in all the cases For sure. But I can definitely tell the lack of emotional intimacy leads up to the big. I caught you. You are actually looking at porn.
HOSTS: 14:17
Yeah, and I think there’s a really hard balancing act because I think from a man standpoint and we hear this from other men is well, if my wife isn’t connected to me emotionally or sexually, then a man doesn’t feel. He obviously feels awful and desired and then undesired, and then it’s really easy for him to say, well, my wife doesn’t want me emotionally or sexually. Therefore they go back and justify what they’re doing because they almost feel that rejection over here. But then on the wife’s side of things, it’s got to be really hard for a wife to say, yeah, I trust you, or I want to connect emotionally and sexually when you’re doing these things, and so I imagine it’s a very hard balance to try to keep in balance.
JENNIFER: 15:05
Yes, and let me be clear, we still in the various I call it episodes of his pornograph use over long marriage. It didn’t immediately impact our intimate life. If he continued use then there would be major negative effects on how interested he was in me. But if it was a one-off thing, it doesn’t always have an immediate impact on whether or not he’s interested in me or emotional intimacy. But if he’s not putting any effort into the intimacy part then that is when he had the bigger issues with porn. If I could say that.
HOSTS: 16:02
I want to hit on something you said or brought up because I think it’s really important, because we hear a lot of people justify and say, oh, porn is going to make your sex life better, it’s going to spice things up. But what I just heard you say, if I understood correctly, is when he started looking at porn again, he was less interested in that sexual intimacy with you, right?
HOSTS: 16:28
The deeper that the porn use got. The less interested in the marriage. Sexual intimacy.
JENNIFER: 16:36
Yes, and I was going to get to this later. But the big, big explosion, the big I guess you can call important moment, had been him hiding it for over a year. I knew it was happening, he was lying to my face and I initiated the sex, but it would be months before he was asking me for it. In fact, I think, towards the deepest, darkest part of that, it had been several months since he asked. I would ask. And then, because he had been masturbating earlier in the day, he would not be able to have a release which would leave me feeling like I’m an adequate. You can’t get excited about being intimate with me Absolutely.
HOSTS:
Now you’re getting denied yeah.
JENNIFER: 17:32
Yeah, so why even should I try to initiate in any of this? Because if you don’t seem like you’re enjoying it, then what’s the point? For sure, yeah.
HOSTS: 17:46
Wow.
JENNIFER: 17:47
It’s such a hard hard place to be in Because at the same time, it’s like it’s not my fault. But unless you fix this, nothing gets fixed correct. Because there’s a wife. You’re like I am not the one doing this, yeah, I’m being cut off and being completely affected so negatively that’s going to hurt.
JENNIFER: 18:12
Yes, really bad. It really hurts, particularly because if you’ve had previous experience with this and it is an addiction. So if you are a spouse of anyone who’s addicted to something, you know the signs of it happening and yet they lie to your face that it’s not so there’s no way for you to intervene, if you can say it that way because there’s no evidence that you can take to a friend or to a counselor and say it’s happening. They’re hiding it. The physical evidence, but the emotional evidence. And even I think he mentioned in his episode that he got fired from his job because he was looking at porn at work and I was seeing the same kind of activities at home. He was not doing any of his responsibilities, he was just sitting back and consumed. Yeah, not willing to engage with life.
HOSTS: 19:17
So how long does this go on until you have a major I don’t even know what you call it breakdown what word would you even use for that? Because you probably got to a point where you’re like this is not going to work for me, right?
JENNIFER: 19:34
Yes, early on in our marriage, after I started having to deal with the reality of OK, he’s not going to be free from porn forever, I had to get honest with myself and with God and rely upon him for my strength each day to get through it. It actually probably was not until after that inciting moment which again I’ll get to in a bit talking about the experience around that but that was when I took a deep soak in the Bible because there were so many faith issues that I had to deal with. There were issues of my identity, there are issues of I’m blaming myself for his actions, so many things going on, and at that time I was not in counseling. I did not know who to talk to, so I was completely alone. It drove me completely to God, completely to his throne, begging him for the strength and wisdom to get through it. And that was important because I saw my husband early on in our marriage as a main source of my happiness. But I had to give that over to God, my relationship with my husband over to God, and recognize I had been holding that as an idol. My focus should be on my relationship with God, not trying to manipulate or manage my relationship with my husband, because if I stay connected with my God, that would give me the strength I needed for each and every trial that I went through and, as Scripture tells us, that would direct my husband to God, which would then enable them to get the relationship correct as well.
HOSTS: 21:42
Wow, that’s beautiful it is, and it sounds like the opposite thing to do. But I totally believe with what you’re saying. Like when we give our problems or issues to God, he’s able to handle them. He’s able to change things and transform things, not only in our life but other people’s lives, and so to hear that focus be on him that helped resolve I guess a lot of the issues that you and your husband were having is just awesome.
HOSTS: 22:13
I think it’s important to say how amazing you are, because I don’t think a lot of women have that attitude Like me being one of them. I think I’d be like you’re out, you cheated, like I think you need to look at yourself and be like I’m freaking amazing for turning to God and giving him more chances, and to look at that higher power in your life, like I don’t think there’s a lot of women that could be like that.
JENNIFER: 22:39
Yeah, I think it was because, going into the marriage, I was making a commitment towards my husband, towards my marriage, and I already had a picture of who I was as a person. I’m a, I’m a center. I don’t get everything right and I constantly betray my own God. I constantly, in our marriage of, as the Bible pictures it, my marriage commitment to my God. I’m pictured as the bride of Christ. I’m constantly betraying him and yet he still welcomes me back. And that was a perspective I had to struggle with over the years. I knew it to be true, but in practice it wasn’t always easy. So knowing how much my God has forgiven me was enabled me to stay committed to my husband and stay committed to our relationship, knowing that I will be here to help him in his struggle with life.
HOSTS: 23:45
Oh, that’s amazing.
HOSTS: 23:47
Do you think that? How do I say I had it in my mind. I’m trying to think of how to word it. That commitment is amazing. Like you’re, you are like a really Christ-like person. Do you think that because you already knew what he struggled with and you went into it knowing that, do you think that changes the fact the way you dealt with it, versus if you didn’t know before you were married?
JENNIFER: 24:19
Yes, completely For sure. If I was blindsided after we were married, it would have been worse. I knew going in that this was a struggle of his that I might have to deal with in the future. But, as I stated, I guess it gave me the confidence that since he was already publicly willing to admit he had this issue, it wouldn’t be as bad. I was proven wrong with that completely. It was. It brought him to the lowest point of his life and only by God’s miraculous grace did he move beyond that point.
HOSTS: 25:03
You were talking about commitment. Do you think that your solid commitment going through this is because you’ve seen your husband turn to God and constantly put in that effort to be better and to try and stop and to save your marriage, Like you or would you be? I mean, is that what’s keeping you so loving and committed and turning to God during those times? Because it would probably be totally different if you didn’t see your husband in that way, Like he wasn’t trying his very hardest right.
HOSTS: 25:36
Yeah, he wasn’t truly going through hell, but giving it all that he had to be committed to you, to be committed to God.
HOSTS: 25:43
And you could feel that in a person when they’re literally like sorry, like this is an addiction. I’m trying my hardest to get out of this right. Like you could feel that as a wife.
JENNIFER: 25:54
There are times that I could feel that, yes, leading up to the darkest point, he was not trying, he had given up completely, he had given up his faith in God, he was not trying to walk, he was doing all the right steps. If anyone interacted with him, just generally, they would say, yeah, sure, he’s got it together. But I knew differently. I knew that he was not wanting to spend any time with his God in scriptures, in prayer. I knew that he was not interested in putting any effort into the relationship with me. So, yeah, that was hard, and I suppose I am a stubborn woman, I’ll admit that. Just not about that I am penacious. That’s a good thing. When I am committed to someone or something, I don’t give up easily. And that is probably something that did make a difference in our relationship, because I have heard heartbreaking stories from women who had husbands who didn’t really care, who had completely given up. They were the point that my husband was and it did ruin their marriage, it did completely blindside them because they had no warning. So it rocked the world, if I can say it this way. Worse, because they had no prep, no inkling that it was going to happen. So, yes, my prior warning helped me, but I’m also completely sure that if a woman is out there and as tenacious as I am in a blindsided situation, their marriage probably would survive, as long as it was a true repentance point for the man that he did try, that he was truly humbled and realized that he needed help. If the guy doesn’t admit that he needs help, then there is nothing that the wife can do, and that is an important point.
HOSTS: 28:14
Yeah, I don’t think Christ can give grace. I don’t think a wife can give grace, unless a husband is willing to do everything he can do to show that he’s trying to get over this right. Yes, he’s trying to get through this.
HOSTS: 28:31
So let’s jump into your darkest moment, your breaking point. We already heard your husband’s side of the story, but how about your side?
JENNIFER: 28:38
Okay. So, as I mentioned, leading up to this, he’d been fired from his job for porn use. We really had not been intimate for much over a period of a year, mostly due to me trying to initiate and him not responding. And so I was at work one day and he texted me, said hey, I’m in a car wreck, can you get off a little bit early today. So I was frustrated and like, okay, yet another thing I have to deal with. I’m home and he sits me down in front of a computer and I’m reading a note he wrote, and I realized quickly this is yet another confession of his that he has been looking at porn, which I had already figured out but never said to his face I don’t believe you, you are looking at porn. And so as soon as I got through like those sentences, I of course stomped out of the room. The ambidor started crying in my bed, betrayed yet again, feeling alone and bewildered of what in the world am I going to do? I don’t know anything that can deal with this right now, or I don’t even know if our marriage is going to survive right now. I did think that many points in our marriage. And so once I calmed down. I came back and it’s been still sitting there on the couch with the computer in front of him. So I’m like, okay, let me finish reading this note. And I quickly realized it wasn’t a confession of porn, it was a suicide note and he had left it buried somewhere on our shared network because he did not want to tell me he was going to commit suicide. He didn’t leave it anywhere I could see, but maybe find someday, because he had been trying to paint this as an accident, since he didn’t want any negative repercussions on my life. But that is twisted thinking because obviously they were major ones. So as soon as I found out he tried to commit suicide. You can only describe it as the grace of God. I immediately took him to the bedroom and we had sex and by the time we were done he was crying because that was showing him that I forgave him. I forgave him months of lying to me, months of betraying to me, betraying me, and showing him that I was committed to him. I was committed to helping him find solutions, because he finally admitted to me that this was a problem and I wish I could say it was easy from then on. It was not. It took him several months to get out of the depression he was in because, yes, this poor and led him to major, major depression. He got counseling from a church. Unfortunately, my church does not have anyone under the title of Woman’s Ministries on staff. It’s the pastor’s wife, and I say that unfortunately because not many people in churches are trained to help the wife deal with her issues on this topic. So there was an attempt at support for me, but it wasn’t what I needed. It wasn’t helpful at all. So that drove me more to my God at that point. And over the years Jason still had issues, but I would say it was getting better because there was no long periods of time that he was lying to my face. There were weeks or several months that would pop up, but I could tell a change in his commitment. He was willing to put in the effort again. He was willing to work at it. He had an accountability partner which he did not have prior to that. He was trying to stay faithful in his relationship with the Lord, being grounded in Scripture, and that was a whole journey for him. And I didn’t mention this before. But I was not willing to have kids because I saw that he was not struggling, he was just doing what he could to get through the day and the issues and everything. But once he actually started dealing with it practically, that’s when I’m like, okay, now we’re ready for kids. So now we have great kids a couple great kids years later. And, yeah, it’s been a journey and eventually I found a great counseling center. It’s called Harvest USA and I found that actually from a book that’s called when your Husband is Addicted to a Pornography Healing your Wounded Heart by Vicky T. There’s a bunch of resources in there, but it is a great book to walk you through the spiritual struggles that you deal with your problems and not teaching you how to bash your husband or how to change your husband. This is teaching you how to walk through the struggles on your own if you don’t have anyone to support you.
HOSTS: 34:10
That’s an amazing story. I think it’s like incredible. I feel like when couples are going through these types of things, it’s really easy for them to kind of separate and try to figure things out on their own right, but this is probably something that couples really need to bind together and even though it’s an issue that he’s dealing with that has such an impact on you, how have you like, how, what things have you done together as a couple to try to work through this together, rather than saying this is your issue, you got to deal with and I’ll deal with my things and separate things, because I think I think that’s Satan’s way of really dividing a marriage, dividing a relationship, and is when he tries to drive us apart. Are there things you’re doing as a couple to try to help him and also, at the same time, help yourself? I mean, what? I guess a long question is what are you doing together as a couple to work through this?
JENNIFER: 35:16
There’s several things that we’re doing. For my part again, I can’t stress this enough I am consistent with my devotion to God, making sure that my spiritual relationship is right, because if that’s not strong, then there will be issues in the marriage. Also, there is PTSD for women whose husbands have porn problems. So he for a long time did not understand why, when I walked into a room, did I get upset at him because of some action he did on the computer and I had to explain to him. It takes me back to you quickly, switching screens or closing your device if you were looking at porn. So I asked him, if I walk into the room and I asked you what were you looking at? For you to be very willing and open to showing me your history that you haven’t had the chance to clear, to showing me the other screen, to opening the device so I could see immediately what was going on. His understanding of that was important. It took me several years to not react drastically. I still have trigger points, if I can say it that way, but if he’s aware of them then he is more sensitive to why I’m emotionally reacting to something. So communication on that part, but also communication on his part with being honest about hey, I don’t think I can watch that movie with you because of scenes in it. So, supporting him and not trying to make him watch a movie that I’m interested in because he’s dedicated to not looking at a sex scene in a movie.
HOSTS: 37:13
I love that you’re saying that.
JENNIFER: 37:15
Yes.
HOSTS: 37:16
Sorry, I don’t mean to interrupt you. I love that you’re saying that, because one of the things Amy and I do is we’ve really put a boundary on like what types of movies we’ll watch, because I don’t want that in my head right. And I love that you’re saying that because how many people are actually doing that? It’s like how many people, if they have a problem, are actually Putting boundaries in place, saying, yeah, we’re not going to watch movies that have these types of scenes? And probably very few, you know, probably still watching those types of movies and wondering why Things are, things are still happening or those problems are still happening. So sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off, but I really wanted to hit on that.
JENNIFER: 37:55
Yeah, and it isn’t, isn’t? It isn’t just scenes. Um, if there’s excessive cleavage, he’ll say I’m sorry, you either need to cover that up while we’re watching this scene or we just can’t watch this movie. He will not. He is dedicated to me. He will not go to a crowded beach or pool because women in swimsuits is a trigger for him and he Does not want any triggers to go down that dark path again. So, yeah, we don’t really hang out at beaches during the season. Um, we don’t go to public pools that are very busy. That would not be easy for him to redirect his Um focus and his, his eyes, um, so communicating our weaknesses, communicating our feelings, is one of the biggest things that’s helped us as a couple. So, um, yeah, we understand what the other person’s going through and when we need to come alongside and kind of be the support. Another thing we do is intentional dates because, um, if he is not actively pursuing Date nights with me, even if it’s at home, we have kids now, two little kids, and we can’t get out as often as we’d like, but he actually invited me this Friday night. We have game night scheduled, um, we have a escape room type game and he has um a snap picked out and um even a bonus activity um all because he knows that’s important to me. So he has a reminder every sunday schedule some kind of date night, even if it’s just let’s listen to an audiobook and Drink a bottle of our expensive root beer together, something like that Um, so that his, his intention is meeting my intimacy needs. And then the other thing that has been amazing and actually revolutionary to our intimate life is when he Finally had the resources he needed to make physical connection a whole lot better. So we we joked the october getaway. It was um before and after in our sex leave, in our marriage. We got it, had a getaway one october and I brought to that getaway the resources of the ultimate intimacy app and um marriage bed tips online. And he was excited because I have been asking him to be creative for years and now he had a step-by-step instruction manual of what we could do, what that looks like and um once he had those tools, I was a whole lot more excited about our physical intimacy Um, which made it happen more often. So that met his intimacy needs. So, yeah, again with the whole being intentional about that, and he is very honest with me saying sweetheart, I know we’ve been busy, I know it’s been a week and a half since we’ve had sex. We need to make something happen. So I tell him, I do not move when you get up early in the morning to hit me up early, even if I’m still asleep because Not a lot of women, I reckon. They don’t say that but We’ve gotten to the point where I recognize it’s important for him, um, and his connection to me. So he’s aware that I may be no more interactive than a banana, just Um, enjoy, letting him enjoy the experience more. But he, he knows that if he needs that it’s a, a quick snack, if I can say on the physical side, yeah.
HOSTS: 41:42
It would be very helpful to a lot of marriages if more people have that attitude absolutely.
HOSTS: 41:49
I was just going to say I think you know we say this often, but sex to a man is so much more than sex. It really is a. It’s hard to explain it. There really is a different type of connection with their, with their spouse and uh.
HOSTS: 42:05
Okay, I have a really hard question. I’m gonna try and ask this in the right way. So we hear a lot from some husbands that say, well, I wouldn’t have gone into porn if my wife hadn’t cut off the sexual intimacy, and my personality is like it’s never the wife’s fault. But what are your thoughts on, like how let’s see, how do I ask this in the right way? I do feel, even as a wife, and even though we’re created differently and sometimes our sex drive is not as high, it is our responsibility to take care of each other’s needs, like I always say. And so if I’m not driven sexually as much as my husband is, I still feel like it’s super important to take care of the aspect for him and and try and enjoy it and and realize and and find out why I’m not enjoying, and fix that right, because it’s for for both people always. But where is that Middle ground where it’s never a wife’s fault? I don’t ever believe that it’s a wife’s fault that a man looks at porn. But there has to be a balance with the sexual intimacy in a marriage, right? Do you know what I’m asking like, yes, let’s talk about that just for a second, because I know, I know this is a big question because a lot of women are like why is he looking at it? And then that’s gonna. That would make me cut it off even faster. Right, if I knew nick was looking at something else, I would be the exact same. I’d be like don’t touch me and I think that’s the point, but that that’s a gap that, like, is a big problem, because if I found that out and I cut it off, that’s gonna make the whole entire problem even worse. Right, and that that happens in a lot of relationships.
HOSTS: 43:44
And I think that’s what I was trying to hit on earlier is exactly that is like where’s that balance? Because If a, if a man feels loved, a lot of men feel loved through physical intimacy, right Like that’s, that’s their love language. And so if a couple’s dealing with porn and the wife cuts everything off emotionally and sexually, it’s so much easier for A husband to just testify and be tempted and say well, she doesn’t care about me, I’m just, we’re not, just, I’m not even just saying husbands like we hear a lot of women that have a high sex drive and the husband’s cut it off, and a lot of women are getting into porn too.
HOSTS: 44:20
This isn’t just a man-woman problem. This is a this is. It’s affecting everyone, right? So let’s talk about that balance, like it not being the other spouse’s fault. But that intimacy and emotional intimacy still has to be balanced in America or there becomes temptations outside correct.
JENNIFER: 44:37
Yes, yes, um, and I’m gonna actually add in there Women who aren’t sexually satisfied go to erotica more than porn. Erotica books are written for women because the situational and Um all of that is more appealing to us than pictures. But yes, women do have trouble with porn, Um, sometimes as well. It’s just not as big of a poll as um smut books.
HOSTS: 45:01
Yeah, it looks a different way. Like you said, it’s well but.
HOSTS: 45:04
But the books are usually more romantic. They get that emotional and then they bring in the sexual right. So it’s yes, we are different.
JENNIFER: 45:12
Mm-hmm. Yes, we are different, but, um and I’m gonna try to say this very clearly and lovingly Um, I completely agree with you. The, the choices a spouse makes, is never your fault. They are completely responsible For their own choices. I am never responsible for the fact that my husband has looked at porn. For sure. I felt like that for years. I was never responsible, however, because I do love my husband and I know intimacy physically helps him connect ourselves, uh, our Connect as better in our marriage. I, even though I may not be in the mood, even though I really don’t feel like it, I, because I love him, will choose to give him the, the connection he needs, um, even when I don’t feel like it. And um, I’m gonna go back to my most recent experience with my husband because, as much as I would like to say, he’s conquered this completely. He is still a man of with feet of play. So, not now, but in the recent year or two, um, he did have an experience of, yes, looking at porn. This time he did tell me that evening, sweetheart, I looked at porn this afternoon, um, and I would tell him I forgave him and then intentionally give him physical affection to show, yes, we are still connected. Um. There were Few occasions where he knew I was totally in the mood that day. He lied to me until after we were intimate that night. That hurt Him lying to me that way, knowing I would probably not be as interested in physical connection If he were honest, that he looked at porn that afternoon or that morning or something like that. So once I made clear my feelings on that, he, um the next occasion, told me yes, I did this today and I would say the next time we connected Was more healing Um I I want to say it was either that night or the next day or something like that Um, but he was honest. I wanted to show him that I appreciated his honesty, because that I value a lot. I wanted to show him that I chose him still Um. So it was more of a Healing sex. It’s not as intimate as some of our other experiences, but I knew it was what he was needing right then. I had no fat answer the question.
HOSTS: 48:12
Yeah, it did. Um, I think it’s really good. I would like to just talk for a sec about about trust After going through something like this and continually having slip-ups. I love that you say like his honesty is what builds trust right, like following those boundaries, or what creates trust when you have a slip-up.
HOSTS: 48:34
Yeah, it’s not a slip-up. So this is honesty. It’s the honesty that keeps you trusting and forgiving Correct.
JENNIFER: 48:41
Yes, yes, now I will say this most recent experience. It was like a one off thing and then a couple months later, another one off thing, and then it was a every week thing. And that’s when I’m like get yourself into counseling. You’re, you’re following a pattern. I’m not going to let you go down the dark hole again. It wasn’t anywhere as near as bad as previous experiences, but I was still hurt because he was not choosing me and I knew that he needed to nip it in the bud before it got any worse. So, yes, that most recent experience was a lot better because he was so honest with me and I was able to come alongside of him and say you need to change something, and change it fast, so you don’t go back to the place you don’t want to be.
HOSTS: 49:32
So let me ask this question. So obviously you’ve put boundaries into place to keep him from looking at that, and that could be okay. We’re going to have a computer in this room and I can always look at and see what you’ve accessed, or maybe you have a flip phone instead of a phone with full access. Whatever those boundaries are, what? What boundaries do you think? Maybe were missed or what, maybe, I guess? How did he slip up? Were there boundaries that maybe weren’t followed or put in place that caused him to slip up? Was maybe, maybe there wasn’t a boundary there of okay, you know, you’re going to have a flip phone instead of full access to an iPhone or whatever.
HOSTS: 50:12
And maybe to add to that question what boundaries would you say to a couple that’s ever had slip ups? These are absolutely what I would put in place right now so this does not happen again. Because I mean there are things like you’re not going to have internet on your phone and we will put the computer in the kitchen and there will not be any other computers in the house, like what kind of things are you like? We didn’t do that. We wish we did. Every person should do those things.
JENNIFER: 50:39
I am going to say, talking to the wife’s, do not make any specific demands of your husband. I know that seems radical, but your job is not to fix him. Your job is to get him to someone else who will help him work through the issues. So I have some suggestions.
HOSTS: 50:58
I like that.
JENNIFER: 50:59
I do like that.
HOSTS: 50:59
Yeah, let him want to be fixed, let him be the one that’s going to say okay, here are the boundaries, that’s good.
JENNIFER: 51:04
Yes, if he is not in charge of the boundaries, they’re not going to work. So I have ideas for you, but do not be the one to enforce them on your husband. You’re not the referee, you’re the one that kicks his butt into counseling so someone else can help him out.
HOSTS: 51:22
Yeah, you’re not his mom.
JENNIFER: 51:24
Yes, you’re not his mom, you’re his wife. So for us he has the computer in the kitchen not the kitchen, the dining room in a place where I can walk in and instantly see what’s on his screen for his personal stuff. Obviously, he works and he works from home, which is, yes, an issue because he has a closed door. And that is when you have the trust, because he can sit there on a cell phone and do things and no one’s the wiser. So that’s another reason why I say he has to enforce his own boundaries. So his boundaries include having his accountability software so his accountability partner can instantly get a notification of this guy’s going to a site. That may not be that great, but more important is his commitment to calling that accountability partner and saying I’m having issues right now. We’ve mentioned a few other boundaries and what not to watch, but I think the biggest thing that was helpful for my husband is him knowing his own triggers, because he does not, if I can say it this way, consciously decide hey, I’m going to go look at porn today. It is something is really messed up at work and he is looking for some kind of relief. And he knows in the past he has found some modicum of quote unquote relief by looking at porn. So his knee jerkers reaction is to go look at porn on a cell phone. So if he knows that emotional issues being really frustrated at someone or being feel like he’s really alone or all sorts of things is a trigger for him, if he’s aware of that, then that’s his cue to get up from his desk, go take a break, talk to me, interact with the kids. Or if he is at the office that day, yeah, going, going somewhere, doing something to take his mind off of his current emotional issues. Because they, the men who struggle with this, most often fall into it because of I don’t want to say accident, but a non conscious, deliberate choice. Initially it is a pattern behavior kind of thing. So once you can recognize those patterns and try to teach himself to do something else, that helps out a lot.
HOSTS: 54:18
Yeah, I’m going to ask you a question that’s going to sound absolutely crazy, but interesting at your response. Do you feel like all these these things you’ve been to hell and back, basically but do you feel like these things have in any way made you stronger as a couple?
JENNIFER: 54:38
Yes, yes, I have seen him at his worst, and I believe that men don’t often like to show their most vulnerable points. So since I have seen him at his worst, at his lowest, and still at that point physically connected and told him I am here, right with you, I would say that that commitment has definitely brought us closer and has encouraged him to respond in kind. And so now we know each other’s weaknesses better. We know the signs and he has kicked me in my own, but when I have fallen to some of my sin tendencies, he knows that about me. I know what is his triggers, what would be helpful for him. So we’re partners. We are not combatants. We are partners in each other’s struggles and as long as we’re honest about our struggles, asking for help when we need them, that is what keeps our marriage strong and actually continues growing.
HOSTS: 56:00
Amazing podcast. I think so many of the things you hit on were exactly what people needed to hear. So, as we’re kind of running out of time and wrap this up like, what last advice do you have for couples that are dealing with porn in their marriage, I mean kind of maybe just a list of bullet points, that advice that you would give them to getting through what they’re struggling with as a couple?
JENNIFER: 56:25
First and foremost, get counseling. We, as wives, feel like we’re so isolated and utterly alone in this and that it’s just devastating and disheartening and all the terrible words you can think of to do that. And if you don’t have someone to talk through what you’re feeling with, it’s just going to spiral worse into devastating depression. So get counseling for you as the wife, for you as the husband Harvest USA is who we’re using, but there are several great counseling networks out there and find someone who is skilled specifically in dealing with porn and its impact, because that is when you actually get the best help. It’s not just someone to talk to. That is actually when you get proactive advice and specific guidance on the next step in your journey. Another thing you’ll want to do is, like I said, be a partner with your spouse. Communicate, be their cheerleader. You’re not here to nitpick, you’re not here to complain. You are here committed, hopefully, unless there’s even worse things going on, in which case go get counseling. So you’re in this together and be honest with each other. Keep the trust there, and that is what will help you get through it. But yeah, do not go at this alone, because that is the worst thing that can happen to you and you won’t probably will not be able to walk out of this healthy, if I can say it that way.
HOSTS: 58:17
I think that’s great advice, and Amy and I talk about this all the time. We love talking to people. I don’t want to say anything that obviously we have experts and things like that, but we love talking to people who have actually been through these things, because you’re going to be able to share a perspective that no one else can. I mean, you’ve gone through it, you felt it. There’s just things that no one else can understand how you felt and what you’ve dealt with unless you’ve been through it yourself, and so we are so grateful that you were willing to come on and share this experience. And again, I think there’s going to be so many people that benefit from this and find hope in this podcast to realize that there is hope. There is hope in getting over this, even though things may seem as dark and bad as they can be at that point.
HOSTS: 59:07
Do you happen to know of any support groups for wives where you have someone to go through to talk to? I’m sure the situation is just awful. Besides a counselor, are there groups where you can go be like I’m going through this too and support each other?
JENNIFER: 59:28
Harvest USA. That’s what it is. Yeah, harvest USA has counseling track you can do. But there’s also a weekly meeting for both men and women either side of this, that you are in a Zoom meeting with a whole bunch of other people in various stages of walking through this. I’ve not participated in that, but my husband has and it has been helpful for him Wonderful.
HOSTS: 59:51
And I love that you talked about having that person that you’re accountable to, Like even. I mean, if it’s bad enough, like someone that’s like, let’s text or call each other every single night and talk about how we did today and what we did to cheer each other on. And I mean because, like you said, like it’s important to have like other people too that are involved, you can be accountable to, you can have those relationships with the support from I don’t know I just I really love that piece of advice that you gave.
Yeah. JENNIFER: 1:00:22
Back when my husband was like in the worst of his depression and porn use and everything in line to me, he would have needed a whole lot more interaction, daily support, daily counseling, daily accountability to get his himself moving in the right direction. Now it would be a chat with his buddy saying hey, I’m having struggles this week, I haven’t fallen yet, but I need you to pray for me this week. It’s worse this week. And this is a buddy he still loves hanging out with other stuff too. So it’s not porn specific buddy, but yeah, it’s various stages. So like he’s not needing active counseling right now, but there was a point that he would have. And you grow. The point is for you to grow out of a lot of these supports, out of a lot of these boundaries, so that you can function better and you don’t need as much. But put them in there when you’re. You know you’re weak and you know you need a little bit extra. Love it.
HOSTS: 1:01:28
Well, thank you again so much for being on. We hope all of you enjoyed this podcast as well. And again, just our goal is to just help couples find ultimate intimacy in their relationship. So thank you again for being on with this. And until next time. We hope all of you find ultimate intimacy in your relationship.
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